Unpacking progress: Navigating True Inclusion in Finance
Download MP3Welcome to TransCanada Stories. I'm Cyn Sweeney, and I'm joined by the lovely co host, Emma Stanley. And in TransCanada Stories, we're all about going beyond binary and telling stories of trans people as people. Welcome to the show.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):Today, we are joined on TransCanada stories by Laura Whiteland. Laura is the first openly trans portfolio manager and financial planner in Canada, as well as a grassroots activist for queer and trans issues. Laura is the founder and principal financial planner of Inclusive Financial Planning. She's also a prominent financial professional. Laura holds several professional designations and is a recognized expert in her field appearing in media like The Globe and Mail, National Post, CTV News Network, CBC Radio.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):And if that weren't enough, she's a media ambassador for Financial Planning Canada, financials leading financial planning organization. Laura is the recipient of the Queen Elizabeth 2 Platinum Jubilee Medal for her work on the 2SLGBTQIA plus community in rural Nova Scotia. Welcome to the studio, Laura. So as someone who's in the transgender community, as a transgender woman, I feel like there's a strong pressure, a very strong pressure these days to sort of industrialize our own queerness, that if you're, in health care, you have to be in queer health care. And if you're in finance, you have to be in inclusive finance.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):And and there's this, like, you have to bring in this element of yourself to the business world. It is non optional if you are open about who you are. Do you feel that pressure, where you are in your business? And and as we are just talking about, I I kind of know that you do because, of pressures that you're receiving from outside to, like, serve as a DEI consultant when that is very specifically not your job. How do you navigate that?
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Yeah. I think there definitely is pressure, you know, just existing in the rooms that you exist within, and you're the only trans person. And you're looking around, and everyone's kinda, like, looking at you whenever those topics come up, and we'll use a lot of emphasis around those topics. Yeah. I think you do end up kind of wearing that, and everyone kind of looks to you.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):I mean, I you know, actually, you know, I guess to talk about kind of like the inclusive finance part of it, like the really where I come at it from is not so much, specifically like trans inclusive. It's more, about, like, being inclusive of everyone and being welcoming. Like, I find financial advice generally is very hard to access. And, I would actually say a majority of my clients aren't queer or trans. They're just folks that either can't get advice elsewhere or really like working with me or kind of the different perspective I bring.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):So I feel like there's definitely pressure in a lot of spaces, but I think, you know, when I'm working 1 on 1 with a client, is actually probably the space there is the least amount of pressure.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):Mhmm. And when you get into spaces outside of business, like at conferences or or, in other meetings, do you find people are often asking you for advice that, like, again, is just sort of outside the scope?
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Yeah. I think maybe, I sometimes feel like you're kinda like the guinea pig. Mhmm. Especially even, I find even in a lot of like professional spaces, you know, when you're in conferences, even if it's, you know, very queer centric, it's not uncommon to be, like, the only trans woman in the room. So there's kind of like, you know, even if there's other, you know, non binary and trans masculine people around, there's still even less, like, trans feminine people in those spaces.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):So, yeah, I do often find, I think, people are kind of looking for it. And at some point, you know, you just kind of have to be like, woah. Like, this is not actually what I do.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):You know,
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):I try and be helpful. I try and be, like, you know, open. And I think you have to be. I think when you're in those spaces, you really like there you can only be so obstinate for so long before it, like, impacts others. So I very much am, like, conscious of that fact of, like Yeah.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):You know, in for some people, like, I might be the first, like, trans entrepreneur they're dealing with or the first, like, trans business owner. And and that's a dynamic that they're not used to. And if I give off a really bad impression, then, you know, you can just they'll just paint that paintbrush, like, the whole way along. So I do feel there's maybe a bit of pressure to be more polite about it and, you know, sometimes kind of help people on the way and maybe hope that they'll figure it out of, like, this isn't really what I do.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):So do you notice, like, then like, is there a difference than if you notice someone who's just cognizant going in and, like, I it's like, I don't wanna make a mistake and they are asking from from that point of view. Are you more kind of patient with that or, you know, or is it just like, okay. Yeah. I'll I'll hand I'll I'll answer this, but I'm cutting this off now, and I'm gonna tell you where you can go to get this information.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):I mean, the cognizant of, like, not wanting to make a mistake thing, I feel like is I feel like that's an idea that maybe like sis people bring to the table of, like, they feel like they can't offend me. And I'm like, the the things you're gonna offend me with are not the things that you think. Like, if you come up and you say something, like, terrible to me, like, that I deal with that every day. I don't care about that. It's like all of the, like, other little things that, like, just make me uncomfortable and, like, remind you that you don't belong there are, like, the things they're not apologizing or acknowledging or dealing with.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):So, like, I don't know. It it's hard to say, like, somebody's coming up with, like, a 100% innocent and, like, just, like, seeking knowledge when they're like, hey. I'm gonna come and talk to you to, like, justify some, like, racism or something else or, like, whatever weird thing they're gonna come talk to me because, like, I've been vulnerable in some other space in a conference. And then they feel like they can just kind of, like, download all of their discomfort onto me and be like, oh, you know, I just, like, don't know how to deal with this. And I'm like, oh, okay.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):So it's hard to really know the difference of, like, I've often felt in my own life, my intentions have never mattered, so no one else's. I I don't really worry about other people's intentions. Because no one cares about mine.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):Like, Cynthia, what you're talking about where where where knowledge seeking is okay. Let me start that again. Another thing that occurs to me is knowledge seekers is something that I approve of. The problem with asking someone, especially someone who's not a DEI professional to provide that, often without a lot of warning is that the first mistake that people have made is look it up first. Just Google this.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):Like, you do not need to make this someone else's job right now. In the same way that I do not walk into doctors conferences and ask them about this weird mole. I just it's just, like, it's a sitcom joke for a reason nobody likes that.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):So would it be a parallel to, like, say, for example, when you and Kendall, I think, were at the Halifax Shopping Center and you were doing something for pride last summer, and I think some people came up to the table and then they started going off about, yeah, we're really supportive and my friend's trans kid is this. But I often wonder about this and that, and they've been up, you know, and they start jumping all of that. Is that, like, I'm kind of feeling like is that that I get bringing There's like
Emma Stanley (She/Her):there's being an information resource, which personally I don't mind, but again, that is my job, and there's being free therapy for people's doubts, which is very much not my job, and and that line's hard to draw and people do walk over it sometimes without really meaning too. I get that, but it is really uncomfortable because then what am I supposed to do? Like, no, you're a pretty bad person. So that's what I've been no. I'm not gonna say that.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):I wish I could say that. I wish I had, you know, the the the hutzpah to say that, but, no, that's not happening.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Well, and when you're in the room, I feel like
Emma Stanley (She/Her):like trying to equivocate someone else's discomfort, and I don't really want to.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):It is a fine line though. Is that sorry. Go ahead, Laura. Yeah.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Yeah. I was just gonna say, I I think the unfortunate thing though is that, you know, when you're in those spaces and everyone has made it very clear that you are different or don't belong, it's like, Hey, somebody just kind of walks up and, like, throws their emotional baggage in your face. And then like, you know, like, you're just like their emotional steward. And then if you don't like reciprocate and like help them deal with it, then like, they're just gonna double down and like make it even worse for you in those spaces. So it's kind of that, like, yeah, I think there's the pressure that you, like, have to deal with it in the moment.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):And then, you know, so that and I guess the unfortunate thing is, like, somebody thinks they're taking up, like, 2 minutes of your time, but they're the 30th person to do that. And every time is, like, difficult, and you have to then, like, process it because, like, they've just thrown, like, everything at the wall at you. So.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):Yeah. So realizing that, yeah, like, what you're what you're putting upon that person to satisfy your own curiosity is, you know, like, you know, a microaggression. You know, you gotta think about is this person having to feel that every single day. Or it's just, like, if I'm in the room and I know, like, because I'm always talking about, like, what to do when you make a mistake and you don't make a big deal, like, you apologize, you'd move on. But I do want people to know I'm authentic.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):Like, I do care. I, like, I, like, I do care that you're in the room, Laura, and I would not wanna offend you. Or so I guess I in every conversation, I go into somebody, like, if I'm in those spaces, but I just wanna make sure that they know, like, if I mess up, call me out, tell me that I'm like, I wanna, you know, I wanna make sure I am doing right because I do care. Like, I mean, it makes Yeah. It's important to me.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):But because it's important somebody does that with my kid and their friends and other people in the community, you know, or or that they do it with with somebody that I'm working with. Like, it you know, I just think it's it's important all around. So
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):I just I just wish cis people would talk about gender. I said, I sometimes just was like, cis people would talk about gender, you know, like when trans people aren't around. You know what I mean? Like, I was not out for a very long period of my life. And, you know, you never hear cis people, like, just like talk about gender amongst themselves.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Like, it's like, you know, it's like when you're the trans in the room and then somebody is like, oh, yeah, that's a thing I've never thought of. Let me ask all the questions or let me like, oh, you've like shaken all these thoughts loose in my head. Or like, oh, that was a cool talk you gave. I've never thought about this even once in my life. Let me just, like, export everything I'm currently feeling at you.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):You know, I often like, before we started, you asked about me putting my pronouns in. Kind of the the the thought I've always gone with this. When I see 2 cis people share pronouns without knowing a trans person is around is when I will start sharing pronouns. Because, like, I very much feel like it's something done performatively by cis people to be like, oh, we did the trans thing now. We've shared the pronouns rather than, like, an actual, like, desire to, like, have a nuanced conversation about gender.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):I I I see where you're going. I can't follow you all the way there. I do think that there is a fake it till you make it aspect of inclusion that is very valid.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):That's fair.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):You practice before you get good, especially with language. Language does not come naturally to to any of us, and it it takes practice. But
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):And I don't converse anyone else who wants to do it. I'm just that's why I am, like, obstinate and weird about it.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):Well, I I have we had a meeting with, I was with my my kiddo and with, a a doctor who we haven't seen before. Like, they know they know us, like, well, like, we've seen them in different circles outside of the profession. But when we sat down in the room, she looked at me and she said, hi. I'm doctor so and so. I use sheher pronouns, and she looked right at me.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):And we've had a 1,000 conversations, and she knows my or my son and my pronouns. And she said, and your pronouns are? And she then confirmed with, and I was like, wow. That was really cool. And it did.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):It felt different because I'm like, you just did it. Like, that's just you do that all the time now, and that is like, it just felt good. Like, and it took me back because it was kind of the oh, do I just you know, we assume that we know, but she just set a precedent right there that this is my space, and I'm gonna ask you whether, you know, you're gonna feel uncomfortable or not. But mhmm. Yeah.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):I mean, she works in the field, but still, I just thought it was a really great she's, kinda setting by example. Yeah. But
Emma Stanley (She/Her):Alright. Thank you so much for indulging me, on on jumping into the the sticky stuff right away. I honestly am never really good at the, at the preamble. So, Laurie, your business, we're just gonna work backwards now.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Okay.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):And is gonna get really mad at me because I have gone wildly off script because I always do.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):I'm here for chaos.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):Chaos, we thrive in chaos. Chaos.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):Yeah. So, Laura, your business is inclusive financial planning. You mentioned earlier that it's about getting advice to people who would not normally have can you expand on that a bit? Yeah. I mean, I worked in finance for over a decade now.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):I don't like how old
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):that already makes me sound. But yeah, so, I worked at kind of in traditional, I worked in banking. I worked in wealth management. I've done the gambit of, you know, many of the occupations. I was very young, you know, working with at kind of the highest levels of that industry.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):And, you know, we we whether or not we wanna get into that, it it came to a crashing halt at one point. And I'll I'll, let the listeners maybe guess as to why. And, I had the opportunity to start my own business. I was in a position where it made sense. And, I was talking to my wife about it, and she like, the first name that she came up with was, like, you gotta call it Inclusive Financial Planning.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):And I was like, that's it. There's no there's no better. I'm not gonna come up with anything better than that. And it really, like, encapsulates you know, inclusion means so many different things, and there's so many different elements to inclusion. And really, you know, in my mind, what that means is anyone can walk in.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):I mean, we we work digitally. So it's a metaphor for walking in, but walking in as they are and, you know, working with people where they're at, you know, with the problems that they have and with the goals that matter to them and not really applying, you know, any sort of bias or agenda on top of them. So, I don't sell any, financial products, contrary to what a lot of financial planners do. So I just work on either a project or an hourly rate. So I work directly with my clients.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):So and I also do some, you know, pay what you can work. So, for the folks that, you know, there's a financial barrier to maybe getting some help, I'm also happy to work with them as well. So really the goal is to make it as easy to understand the financial situation you're in and then make decisions. Decision making is a huge part of the process, when I'm working with anyone. And, you know, it's really about, centering it on the person that I'm dealing with.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):I sometimes talk about, you know, I walk in with a blank piece of paper because I don't wanna bring in any preconceived notions, which ironically actually runs contrary to every bit of advice I've ever gotten in the industry of what you're supposed to do. Because you're supposed to walk in with like, oh, this is what I think, and this is what you should be doing. And here's the best idea of the day. And I really, you know, rejected that and said, you know what? You know, when when I sit down with someone, you know, the first thing I say is, what's on your mind?
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):And we just start with that.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):And, have you always lived in the area? Is this, what made you choose Churro for your business?
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):So I grew up in Dartmouth, actually. So in the back when it wasn't cool, and he was just, you
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):know, he was just poor.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):You know, I I like to there's a Johnny Cash song, the man in black, and he he talks about, you know, the folks lived on the hungry hopeless side of town. That's that's where I feel like I, I grew up. So, I mean, I I worked, went to school in Dartmouth. And then, you know, I don't know if you remember post 2,008 economics very well, but jobs just didn't they just they just weren't there. So I had, a short summer, like, job, working, downtown Halifax.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):And I had the option to apply or sorry. I applied for a job, and I had the, option to, I guess, accept it. And it was a, branch, like, banking job in. So, that's why we're here. And just kinda ended up liking living in a town.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Thanks.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):Nice. So you commuted for a little bit, and then you just uprooted and hopped on your or your horse and went? Like, Johnny Cash.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):9 months to get a job up here. So I commuted for that time, and then, she finally found a job. And we, yeah, I commuted all winter. That was the I started in September, and we moved here in June. So that was really bright.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):And, yeah. I, yeah, we moved up here once she got a full time job, and it it took it took a while.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):So for listeners, like, it's the true to Halifax, true to Dartmouth, what? We're like about 45 minutes, 50 minutes down that route?
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):It's a 100 kilometers. So, it's about an hour in good weather and about 2 in naught.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):And about 4 minutes from some of the driving I've seen in Halifax, but, I have lived in a lot of countries, a lot of very big cities, and this is the first one where the driving scares me.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):There's no there's not I mean, yeah, traffic is funny. It's kind of a
Emma Stanley (She/Her):I learned to drive a motorcycle in Bangkok, and Halifax is where the driving scares me.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):But see, Halifax is that weird mix of, like, everyone's a little too nice that they don't quite follow the roads. Like, in a lot of big cities, it's just, like, you know, giver or die. And you just, like, know what you know what to expect because everyone's just, like, doing their thing. Whereas Halifax, I mean, you'll, like, randomly stop to let you turn left and then just, like, cause an accident.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):Yeah. Although those people are getting few and fewer, I think, because now they're combined with the post COVID road rage, and you think they're gonna stop, and I'm just gonna walk out. But no. No. No.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):Now they're a little New Yorker a bit and kinda threatening. But True. Yeah. So you talked a little bit about, like, what is inclusive financial planning. Do you wanna talk a little bit then what what it looks like when it is not inclusive, and, you know, what you really try to do differently from what, you know, what you've seen when you were working with another, like, a larger corporate organization.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Yeah. I I mean, one of the one of my favorite kind of stories to tell is sitting in, you know, at a conference with, you know, a 1000 financial advisors. And one of the segments, like the breakout sessions was on, you know, making financial advice more inclusive. And the entire thing was about how, like, they didn't use the they didn't say white, but it was about white women and like how to give advice to white women. Because like that is the frontier of diversity and then like financial spaces of like, oh, there's all these, like, white men who are dying, and their wives are gonna inherit their money.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Maybe we should figure out how to talk to them. It's like that is so, like, we're not even talking about white women in general. Like, we're talking just, like, older like, widows, basically, is, like, where the conversation is at. So, like, basically, is, like, where the conversation is at. So, like, yeah.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):There there's really not even, like, a comparison. Like, you know, me just existing in those rooms is, like, just awkward, to be honest with you.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):So in today's TD Connected community moment, we'd love to know, do you participate in active financial planning, and have any advice, that you can, share with us here. We would love to learn if you have any, tips, tips or tricks that, that you can share. If there's anything that stood out to you from this particular show, click the link that is in the show notes, and we put it up here on the screen. And, we really look forward to hearing from you. Thanks for tuning in.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Me just existing in those rooms is, like, just awkward, to be honest with you.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):And yet you bring so much to the space. I mean, you can bring so I mean, I think the the broadness of perspective can be so helpful to, you know, I mean, I get uncomfortable having those conversations. So,
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):For sure. And I very much feel like it's my responsibility to not make it uncomfortable and to sort of, you know, try and be vulnerable in the space with people and really acknowledge that. And, you know, I talk a lot about how with folks about, you know, how there is these taboos and, like, actually just having the conversation that it's like, it's okay to feel uncomfortable about this. You know, even the way, you know, I I do billing. I don't bill people until we're at we're done.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Like a plan, for example. Just to kind of say, like, I am in this vulnerable space with you. Like, I'm not getting paid until you have the option to just not pay me if you don't like what I do. And there's a lot of planners even in the advice only side that don't do that. They want a deposit or something.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):And part of that for me is just saying, like, I am along this journey with you. It doesn't matter how long it takes. You know, if we take 10 months to go through this, like, you don't have to feel like, Oh, well, I paid for it, so I should do it. Or there's money in the middle of this. Like, we just try and take money out of the conversation between us so that we can, again, focus more on, like, them as the person.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):So, I really tried to, you know, as structurally as possible, make it so that, you know, money isn't the conversation between us. It's a conversation we're having together.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):I love that. So talking you were mentioning how, a lot of financial planning is based around decision making, and that the conversation between the financial planning community and basically everyone except fairly wealthy white cis, straight men is is shaky at best, mostly non existent. So
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Yeah.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):The trans community and kind of the queer community in general is pretty is historically underemployed and under housed. And, in some of our workshops, it's come up that there's also this sense of why bother a lot of the time. Certainly that was my reality, and, the the experience of of other trans people that I know of a sort of hopelessness about success. Like, yes, I will survive, but there's no point in in thinking about retirement, or there's no point in thinking about home ownership or starting a family because those things are simply not available to me. There's this this block that gets built up.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):And so I think a lot of people or I get the impression that a lot of people are in our community are kind of lacking those skills. Do you feel like there is the like, we need to directly address the lack of sort of basic financial skills within the queer community or the trans community specifically?
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Yeah. I mean, I think even within, you know, using, the community as a whole, I think is somewhat, incorrect. Because I do think, you know, the queer community has more access to advice than the trans community does, a 100% and support. And, yeah, there is a lot of like, so so economic reasons why that is very true. And and talking about, you know, underemployment and unemployment and just having a very low likelihood of, you know, profound success as a trans person.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):And that's why, you know, when I talk about meeting somebody where their goals are, you know, even as you're talking about like buying a house, retirement, like those are very like traditional ideas of like what financial goals look like. And those are fine goals. But, you know, I've worked with folks that are in the community, who, you know, are just looking to figure out how to budget or looking to figure out like, okay. You know what? I got myself through school, and I'm working now.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Like, what can I do? And, like, what does any of this even mean to me? You know, for some trans people, it's really just like, I wanna know that I have enough money that if my boss fires me, I'm not gonna lose my house.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):Absolutely.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):And, like, that's a that's a fine goal. And, like, you know, that might still fit into the realm of housing, and, you know, maybe some of that money eventually does end up being a down payment for a house. But the immediate need is, you know, security and not necessarily, you know, driven by a long term strategy for wealth, but more just how do I protect myself because the world's not gonna protect me. Mhmm.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):So walking through the process. So if somebody comes into your office and and they're they're talking about their goals and they have, say, a chunk of money or they have, like, their I say their portfolio in, hi, Laura. This is my monthly outgoings. This is my monthly incoming. Can you you would look at that, would you?
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):And then say, okay. Here's where I could see you could potentially do some savings where maybe, you know and we could cut back here and then you talk about risk. And then you could potentially say, would you like to invest, like, a little bit here for low risk, a little bit that's a little bit higher, but is that kind of then you'll come up with a plan that way and then run it for them or decide? Yeah.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):So I don't sell any financial products, so I don't like, I wouldn't you wouldn't open an account with me, for example. But I do help people, you know, build out their own portfolios. You know, there's a lot of ways to invest on your own now that are just as good and cheaper than, you know, what most advisors will do for the majority of people these days. So helping, you know, really, on the investment side of it, a lot of the values more in having somebody help you understand, like, risk and asset allocation, and then helping you through, like, the hard times, you know, when markets go down and it gets scary. So those are all the parts that I can still help people with.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):I've done the other parts of it in the past just for regulatory reasons, I I'm not able to do that anymore. But, yeah, I mean, as far as kinda going back into the overall, like, what a financial plan looks like, is kind of a holistic view of everything. I think where I also differ is I work on smaller plans as well. So Mhmm. For some folks, we just chat for an hour.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):So I call it advice time. And, you know, we meet first. They we talk through what they're looking for. And if they're just kinda looking for some general advice and to just talk through, like, what's going on, then, you know, we can just people just kinda bring a list of questions and we rattle through them, and that's often, helpful, especially for younger people. If we're talking about, like, you know, something like budgeting, that can get into you know, we do, like, a targeted plan.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):So that's, you know, cheaper. It's a a shorter engagement. But, again, you know, we're not gonna plan for your retirement at 32 when you're worried about paying off your credit card debt. So, you know, figuring out kind of what's the immediate problem is sometimes where people are at. So I try and give that range of services.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Again, that's part of that accessibility and that that inclusivity. Mhmm. And you
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):can work with anybody anywhere, really, right, because you're virtual?
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Except Quebec. But I'm I'm actually you know what? I saw an announcement today that might be coming soon. We'll see. But no, Quebec has a different regulatory regime for financial planning.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):So I'm, I'm working on it, but not yet.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):So focusing for a moment on the sort of meta business rather than what you do, your experience as an entrepreneur. Asking, like, did being trans change your experience of being an entrepreneur is is silly, is is water wet. But was there anything that sort of stuck out to you or was a a a moment that crystallized the difference pre and post transition, say, as an entrepreneur?
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):So actually, I've never been an entrepreneur, pre transition. We, we bought our first business, basically around the same time I came in. Okay. Yeah. So actually one of the first conversations, my wife had to have with her staff was that, she had a wife.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):So that was, you know, that's just how we did it. We just went We just went hard at it. You know, we did it the best slash worst possible way, I guess. So no, I've actually never really been an entrepreneur and presenting SIS before. So I don't actually have that experience.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):Were there any roadblocks that you felt were were attributable to that? And is is that something that's on your mind? Or is it like I find, when I engage with that thought process, I tend to get tangled up. So I try and just kind of push it away. But where there's
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):a 100%. Like, yeah, you can you can tell, you know, I mean, I was in business and in finance before coming out. So, you know, I do know what those rooms, feel like. And, I I mean, to kinda illustrate it, I was asked to sit on, the board of the Chamber of Commerce, before coming out. And through the the their kind of, onboarding processes when I came out.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):And that offer was never discussed again, we'll say. So no. The larger business community working as an you know, existing as an entrepreneur is definitely a much more of a closed door experience. Even, you know, I would say, like in queer spaces as well, like there's still a gap there that I think exists for trans entrepreneurs too.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):How important is it then for you to, like, move like, to navigate in, like, some of the entrepreneurial, like, networking opportunities and that, because I know, like it's funny. I couldn't drag Emma out to lots of different things and but grudgingly sometimes. But, I find, like, you know, it the visibility, it's so important to be able to, you know, you have to do it even though, I mean, like, we got comfortable not doing it in COVID. How important is it to you? Or is that a goal, like, that you like, you'd like to be doing a little bit more of that?
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):Or
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):It's It's a hard thing because I work with a lot of entrepreneurs, you know, I would actually say kind of my main business these days is actually working, with entrepreneurs. So, you know, talking about the planning part of it. I've really expanded that into kind of a full, business consulting suite. So I do work with a lot of entrepreneurs, but it's often in kind of, different ways that I run into them and meet with them. You know, a lot of folks find me through my website, which is probably the most reliable way, that I interact with people that then actually leads to business is people that have kind of had a chance to warm up to the idea of me first, I think.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):You know, when I meet people in person, definitely like other trans entrepreneurs, I think we get to have kind of an open conversation. But once I get out of that space, it starts getting a little bit dicier as to whether or not people necessarily see value in what I do because I do things so differently. I think often they bring in their conception of what financial planning and, you know, what, you know, financial management coaching and consulting can look like. And they think about it in kind of a very like, rigid, almost like accounting, very traditional way. And I really kind of, you know, what I've talked about, about like the personal financial planning, able to bring even more of that creativity into, you know, entrepreneurial spaces.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):And there are some people that kind of instantly get it, and then there's some people that just like instantly don't. And, Yeah. It's hard to say, like, is there value? It's you never know. And that's kind of the thing about networking.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):But I will say, like, I I definitely probably hit my head against it a lot more than your average entrepreneur does. And yeah.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):What do you mean to hit your head?
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Just like the, time spent out and connecting, doesn't necessarily translate into a ton of, like, meaningful contacts that will, like, sometimes it does. And it's, like, surprising and it's amazing. But then, you know, if I go to, yeah, sometimes it's just like I get stuck in the corner of a room and I talk to a few people and then awkwardly, like, shuffle it. So, like, it's always kind of a crapshoot.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):Yeah.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):And yeah. And it's like and those room then, you know, those events are the ones that are, like, the most stressful and difficult to be within. So it's, you know, it's usually, like, when the panic attack finally is, like, overwhelmed me, it's time to drive home is kind of the, like that's that's my metric.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):I did notice that all of the East Coast trans people found each other within about 20 minutes of Defy's doors opening.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Oh, yeah.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):We had we had the delegation going. I have photos. It was awesome. But it was interesting how we all kind of, like, found each other very quickly.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):I think it's important to do, isn't it? Like, to try and bring together if you're traveling. Right? Like, to, especially, like, to bring together people or even give the opportunity to connect beforehand to know that you're going. What do you think?
Emma Stanley (She/Her):I certainly think so. I find that finding other people in my position is both rare and and very cool.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):I, no. I I 100% agree. I think it's, the the same conference the year before was in Kingston, and it was kind of the same thing. There was, like, the trans delegation at the back corner of the room. We just kinda, like, hung out with each other for the 3 days.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):So I think it's quite common. And part of it is that, like, you know, some people may drift in and out, but for the most part, it's hard to integrate into those spaces, even if they are kind of like queer centric spaces.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):So Yeah. We connected when I saw you were sitting, Well, I know Emma had already connected with you in Montreal and Defy in July, but, that conference. We spoke on a conference, a conference panel or an event panel this summer during pride, hosted with the Chamber of Commerce and the CGLCC. And I think what really stood out to me the most is that with the panel being, you know, 22 trans people and then one person who is, a great member of the 2SLGBTQIA plus community. And, like, just the the huge gaps in the idea of inclusion and how far we've come, around, you know, the feeling of, yeah, we're all doing so great and that lack of, like, people really getting it as far as for the trans community and understanding, you know, how really that's not a reality for everybody.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):And I think that's one of the biggest takeaways that I got from listening to the panel. That was, you know, really valuable. And I think a lot of people well, people at the table, I think, were feeling it, but were sitting with me as well. What it you know, being, you know, up there and kind of answering those questions, I think you you kind of, you're really great at addressing it as well and kind of focusing on that in that room. How did that make you feel?
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):Like how?
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):How did it make me feel? It was very stressful. Yeah, I definitely like, I I kinda curled up into a ball the next day and just like had to recover. It's it's hard to, like, output that much energy with confidence when you know it's, like, rubbing against the grain for people. Yeah.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):And I mean I mean, to set the stage a little bit more, she was a self identified lipstick lesbian. Lesbian. So we're talking about a very, you know, comfortable cis presenting, you know, gay woman. And yeah, there definitely was a huge canyon and experience of what's being discussed. And one of the conversations I feel like doesn't come up a lot within, you know, queer and trans spaces is the role of disclosure that trans people don't have.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):You know, CGLCC puts out a stat a lot of, like, you know, a third of, their business owners that they surveyed don't feel comfortable coming out. And that's really something that I don't feel a lot of trans people even really get to think about. You as a trans person, you don't get to decide if someone perceives you as cis or trans. And, you know, and also to talk about, you know, being perceived as cis is also not necessarily a benefit. Like, it's very destructive to, you know, who you are as well to just be labeled as cis.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):So you really don't get to like control how you're perceived in the same way. And I think that's what we were talking a lot about is that like, you know, where progress has been, has been more mostly for queer people. I mean, if you look at, there's a great book by Susan, Striker, transgender history and the challenges that, you know, trans people were having in the sixties seventies haven't gone away, but they have gone away for queer people. And the challenges that queer people were having in the eighties nineties have gotten lessened, but not for trans people. So, like, it's always just this, like, constant history of trans people kinda wearing the consequences of progress, but never really benefiting from it.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):And, you know, I I think on that panel, you know, the 2 of us had the opportunity to really just kinda say, you know what? Like, who is this pro like, who what is this progress?
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):I think it was a great opportunity for that though. And I I I was gonna say, I do think that you're very confident and not dogmatic. I think it was an important conversation, but I feel like like the panel I feel like it and I that's just observing that, the best interests were there, and it was a learning for for a lot of people maybe in the room. But I felt like it was, it elevated that event to me, I think. It wasn't just your typical prescreen, preapproved q and a.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):It was real.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):One of my least favorite sayings is things are so much better now. And I've been to multiple conferences now where it almost seems like it's a theme. And talking about, you know, sitting in that, you know, back table with all the trans people. And, you know, that theme of, actually, I think literally the words, things are so much better now at that conference were said like almost every 20 minutes. And, you know, around that table were people that, you know, they were entrepreneurs because their careers had ended because they transitioned.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):They were, you know, professionals that were massively underemployed and maltreated because they were trans. And, you know, we're looking around and we're like, who what where is this better? Like, who is this better for? Where when did this progress happen and what are you talking about?
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):It's a we versus us. Right? Or we and them. Yeah.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):And I and I very much think, you know, you know, within the community, if we wanna talk about it as a larger community, I think we need to be able to have the conversation that, like, there isn't equal opportunity for every letter of that alphabet.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):So in today's TD connected community moment, we'd love to know. Do you participate in active financial planning, and have any advice, that you can, share with us here? We would love to learn if you have any, tips, tips or tricks that, that you can share. If there's anything that stood out to you from this particular show, click the link that is in the show notes, and we put it up here on the screen. And, we really look forward to hearing from you.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):Thanks for tuning in. No. And, I mean, it it's interesting because for me as a cis person but a parent, I mean, that's obvious. And I just can't understand how it wouldn't be obvious to everybody within the community because, you know, to me, that's, like, that's the sort of the biggest the biggest piece of it is that where, you know, where we're at for trans inclusion. And that was kinda like where they were around gay and lesbian rights back in the seventies.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):Like, we're still, like, 50 years behind or more. We haven't I also
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):seventies, actually. Transness is still considered a, mental disorder, which was, you know, queer people got that in the seventies. So, no, we haven't we haven't caught up with that.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):I think Emma and I, we were at the, plus LGBTQIA plus, awards last year at the Black and White Ellen. It was just interesting because for the amount of corporates that sponsored or got up and announced awards, Emma was gonna start to, like, put up a sign or a ding for everyone that got up there that couldn't say the acronym. Like, they just got g s l g e t, but they had it maybe inserted in their speech, like, 20 times, but they and that was multiple people. And we just keep going, do you not like, can you not even say it? Like, why are you here?
Emma Stanley (She/Her):Do you remember the, Staples used to have I think it was Staples had a button, and you would hit it in
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):a Easy button. Word
Emma Stanley (She/Her):or something. The easy button. Right. I wanted to like, next year, I'm going to bring a button and it's just gonna say the acronym and they can put it on the podium and they can just hit it when they need to say it. And, yeah, there was there were large quantities of sympathy there also because public speaking is a nightmare and a lot of those people, it's not their job.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):That sad. Maybe if you're gonna put it in your speech 10 times you should you should practice. And I think there is like I I don't know I run into it a lot I think there is this idea that inclusion comes without practice. And then if you can't do it without practice, you're doing it wrong, and you should be able to. And I think that we probably should move past that because nothing comes without practice.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):No fluency has ever come without practice. And But I think
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):that's also the major stuff that
Emma Stanley (She/Her):on as a responsibility. Like, you must practice if you want to be good at this and also have have some sympathy for it. This person is still practicing. Your empathy. If because shame
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):will shut it down. Right? Like, shame is gonna just shut down that feeling of
Emma Stanley (She/Her):Shame is highly likely really useful to me. No. Use for it yet. I can't pay rent. No.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):Or but
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):or somebody that's learning, like someone that's learning that you're gonna shame them.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):They're just instantly gonna go back in and go, okay, I can't get this right. I'm gonna avoid the conversations. I'm gonna keep my head down, and I'm gonna just try not to make a mistake. But I'm gonna just avoid
Emma Stanley (She/Her):the conversation is why well, certainly in my experience, why I haven't been hired for jobs because someone's afraid they're gonna make a mistake, so they just decide, like, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna not involve myself, which is really, like, the definition of privilege. If you have the ability to say, I'm just not gonna deal with this today, whatever that thing is, you have privilege in that area. And that's what I was gonna I'm going to say. The the conversation around
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):inclusion often, like, completely goes off the rails as soon as somebody's right to privilege feels threatened. And I do, you know, I've somewhat challenged the idea of when people talk about, like, you know, you'll hear sometimes, like, rights aren't pie. There's enough for everyone. But I think we also need to talk about the fact that, there are people in our society who feel they have a right to their privilege and they have a right to comfort and they have a right to belonging that they don't extend to everyone else and that not all of us have. And, you know, there is a cost to dealing with that.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):And the cost is often borne by the person who is not belonging and who does not, you know, experience that privilege in that moment. And, you know, folks that are sitting there saying, oh, well, I wanna make a difference, and I want, you know, the world to be more inclusive, also need to accept that that might mean they might lose their, you know, right to comfort at times. And that they might actually have to be the ones who have to experience the discomfort that, you know, marginalized people just experience by existing.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):I love that. It's like, yeah, comfort. It's a risk, but that's all you're gonna that's all you're gonna lose is your feeling of comfort, but you're gonna you're gonna gain. I know I mean, I just from my own, I grew up in a small town. I grew up in, Brampton, Ontario.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):At the time, it was a tiny town. Look privilege of being middle class, family owned business, whatever. And, you know, didn't, you know, I grew up thinking, okay. Well, we have these rights. You have to work hard for these pieces as, you know, if you're working hard and you're, like, playing by the rules, which I guess, you know, I could.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):Right? And but it was kind of that that light bulb for me, like, when my kiddo came home and said, hey. Like, this is my reality. This is who I am. I'm transgender.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):And, like, that learning was like, what do you mean? And then, okay, trying to figure it out, but then all of a sudden seeing the rights disappear. And for me, it was like, wait a minute. These rights should apply to you. They apply to everybody.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):We pay taxes. We're here. Like, we're citizens of of and and it was that was I mean, I'm ashamed to say, but that was a huge wake up moment to me because I hadn't I hadn't faced that before. I hadn't seen that before. I'd I, you know, I'm for whatever you know, I I can't say why, but I can say, like, ever since then, I'm like, I need to undo this.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):This is not right. You know, for my and the idea that if I feel this, other people must feel this too. And so Mhmm. It's kind of like make you know, building that awareness, I guess. But it, you know, it's embarrassing, I think, for people.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):You throw shame on it as well, and it it kind of but it does get to a certain point. I think, actually, Chris Cochran, no noir had said that at some point. Like, you can't say, you know, you're in your sixties or your seventies and say this is this is new to me. Because, yeah, if it is new to you, like, at this point, like, to it, like, there's enough of it going on. There's enough around that you're you can can hear depending on where you're living.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):If you're in an urban center, certainly, the information's there. It's around you. Look, you know, open your eyes and see it and, yeah, and figure it out.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):But I mean, I would you know, Stonewall happened 55 years ago.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):And we all have a supercomputer in our pocket.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):So, even the idea that there is this like, Oh, you know, it's not knowing about it is also a choice at this point. Like you've lived through, you know, we as a society have lived through, you know, the civil rights movement and had to confront, you know, the existence of racism for 60 years now. And not to say that racism didn't exist beforehand, but that like visible and taut discussions of racism have existed for 60 years. And yet we can't seem to talk about it. You know, homophobia and transphobia have been, you know, part of the national record for 60 years now.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):And, you know, even longer if you want to include, you know, European history. You know, these instances of hate and discrimination have existed the entire time. It's the choice of people to ignore them.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):And that's bringing
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):They can't make the excuse that they don't know it. They choose to ignore it.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):Bringing us back to the privileged discussion. I think that the right to ignore it, especially when it comes to my child is not ready for that.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):Oh. My
Emma Stanley (She/Her):this this this person should be able to ignore that person for as long as possible, is ridiculous.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):No. I
Emma Stanley (She/Her):you don't get to ignore things. They exist.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):Right. If you're experiencing transphobia at the age of 5 or 6, you the per like, the other 5 6 year olds are able to, like, be exposed to what is this about and what, you know, what what should you be doing that's better. And, like, so we often talk, like, in the workshops. I Emma talks about, like, the pink triangle and the idea of it not having been taught at all in every section where whenever we're talking about World War 2, which is something that has been taught in schools for years and that that's never been one small minor piece that's been brought into the idea of
Emma Stanley (She/Her):Yeah. I have been I started to, I just have a splash page of some queer history, and I brought it up and the number of times I have pointed at a pink triangle and asked, you know, does everyone know what this is? I honestly the first time, I swear it was entirely rhetorical. I assumed that every person knew basically what this was about and it turns out no not at all and I don't know when I learned that certainly 30 years before my transition, so I don't understand. But that was something that I picked up along the way quite by accident, and and to understand that that is a unique position was really surprising to me.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Well, and I often find it interesting, like, the black triangle has also seemed to have faded from the community's memory. And also that the pink triangle was also for trans people. You know, I've had queer people say like, oh, you know, the pink triangle was for gay men. And it was not. It's exclusively.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Yeah. Yeah. It was not exclusively, you know, their badge to, to be born, branded with. So no, there's a huge amount of history in there that has definitely gone, unremembered and, yeah.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):There's a lot to be there. I didn't know that actually. Thanks for saying that because I, I don't know if I had thought about it either way of who specifically it was for, but I didn't know that, yeah. But included the trans people because I think I thought probably back then, like, you in that space and for, say, armed forces going overseas, and for people there in, you know, being locked up, how many out people would there be? And was it more like, again, like, with the fruit machine where people are assuming that you are pointing a finger and saying, oh, you're trans because you walk this way or you talk this way.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):How many people are actually living out and freely then anyway because of the laws
Emma Stanley (She/Her):and the rights? They did have the, like, shoot the Hirschfield Institute at that point. So there were there were I mean, there was not only was it There was legal recognition. They had they had passports, with with, like, they were printing identification with with updated gender information on it for Yeah. Trans people at the time.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):It was experimental, and it was only in Germany. So there's that, but there definitely was an existence. Mhmm. Even that far back.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):No. And that's, the Night of Long Knives, was actually very reliant on the Hirschfeld, Institute's documents.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):What's that?
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):The Night of Long Knives. It was the Nazi purge for queer and trans people, in positions of power and government and business. And they basically rounded up as many queer and trans people as they could find. And it was the documents from the Hirschfeld Institute that led them to a lot of the trans people. And it was very early, I think, 1932.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):Okay. Interesting. I'll find a link, I'll do some research, and we'll put it in the show notes.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):Laura, it has been wonderful having you in the studio today. It has been eye opening and, a great chat. I do hope we see you here again soon. Thanks for coming in. Yeah.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):Thanks for having me.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):Great to meet you.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):I didn't expect to get still lost in the history, but, I guess those are that those are part of our stories. Right? That's the whole that's the whole name of the thing. It's coming full circle.
Emma Stanley (She/Her):We got the title in there. Right?
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):No. Thank you both for having me. And, yeah, hopefully, hopefully, I haven't worn out my welcome too much. Sometimes people get tired of me. So
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):No. I'm already thinking, okay. When can we have you on again? So this is good. I lost track of time.
Cyn Sweeney (She/Her):So it's, it's great. Thanks, Laura.
Laura Whiteland (She/Her):Well, thank you
Emma Stanley (She/Her):very much for coming in. Bye.
