Trans Canada Stories

Welcome to Trans Canada Stories.

I'm Cyn Sweeney, and I'm joined by the lovely co-host,

Emma Stanley, and in Trans Canada Stories we're all about

going beyond binary

and telling stories of trans people as people.

Welcome to the show. Okay.

Welcome to Trans Canada Stories.

We are joined in studio today

with the fabulous Terri McDowell,

who we first had on Hey, Cis! Podcast.

It was in January of 2023, so a little over a year ago now.

And Terri, if you'd like to introduce yourself, I'd love

to just hear a little bit about what you've been up

to since we last, last talked.

I know that you're still with EY.

I don't know if you've moved around in there,

but you're probably wearing another, a new hat

with a national nonprofit

organization too, that we'd love to hear about.

Yeah. Thanks.

Uh, thank, thank you Cyn,

and, good to see you again, Emma.

Uh, glad to be on, uh, uh,

some things have changed much has stayed the same.

I, had the pleasure, as you said,

to join you a little over a year ago on this podcast.

And, I am still at Ernst

and Young, so EY is, still home to me.

I, uh, still serving as a tax partner there.

Um, kind of a senior advisory partner these days.

So, uh, more a consultant within the practice

to other partners in the practice.

So that's exciting. A new, new venture yet again,

which always keeps things fresh.

but outside of, uh, of EY, a couple of things, uh, have,

have kind of been taking my time as well.

I did join the, the board

for the 2SLGBTQI+ Chamber of Commerce.

We're based here out of Toronto,

but we're a national chamber,

so we have representation across the country.

that's been a very exciting experience.

I admit, I'm still learning, uh, how to be a board member in

that organization, all the constituencies that we, we serve.

But it's a very important avenue for the queer community,

queer entrepreneurs, queer business,

but also corporates, uh, to be involved and,

and be connected across, across the network.

So that's been exciting.

Uh, and also serving on another, uh, board that's not nearly

as exciting for this audience as that one.

But I also, uh, sit on the board of Governors

for the Canadian Tax Foundation, where I, I chair the, uh,

finance committee for that organization.

So, obviously, near

and dear to my professional career, uh,

we have about 13,000 members across the country.

So it's, it's a big constituency,

represent representation from, uh, government, academia, uh,

and then the professional service firms as well

as taxpayers at large.

So, between those two things

and my nine to five job, I'm finding ways to keep busy.

Thank you. Well, and it's great

that you could find some time to talk to us.

I think, I think people are either terrified, uh,

or very excited to hear the word

taxed in the month of April.

I don't know. It's great that we, uh, we even managed

to carve some time out for you to join us today. Of course.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, fortunately to say to the audience,

we're not gonna talk a lot of tax today.

I don't think so.

Course no tax. No, we will not talk tax today.

We are talking. We had a great chat.

So I first met Terri for background, um, at the,

so when you say the 2SLGBTQI+ Chamber of Commerce,

for listeners who don't know, it's formerly the CGLCC.

and we met at the awards back in 2022,

where you were, uh, you took home the

fabulous recognition of being the

business leader of the year.

And then you came on and

talked to us a little bit about that.

And also, we talked about inclusion in the workplace,

because being a trans women, women working in C-suite,

having worked in various locations, you're in Toronto now,

but you've been in New York

and elsewhere, you've got a lot of really great experience

and knowledge that you can share with listeners

and helping them to think about elevating their careers

if they're a part of the community,

or how to be a better ally

and more inclusive if they are not.

Yeah, no, a absolutely Cyn.

And and I think that's largely the direction we're gonna

take today and talk about some of those things.

But I've been, uh, again, not to repeat what was on, uh,

our our last time together,

but I have been very fortunate

that I have had an opportunity to move around North America,

always with the same company and,

and always, uh, kind of gave me a chance to progress,

not just professionally, but also personally.

And also in my, my own personal transition journey.

It's given me lots of opportunities.

So I think one of the things I really treasure of

that experience, particularly

as I'm getting later in my career

and starting to look back at it, is I've had a nice mix

of working in smaller centers as well as some

of the largest, largest centers.

And so, coming to appreciate

not just differences, but more importantly,

I think similarities of, of what that really represents

and the differing communities that we encounter, uh,

both professionally

and personally as we, as we go through our occupational

and personal journeys in life kind of thing.

And, and I really kinda like to

emphasize the, the similarities.

People are people wherever you end up.

And it's all about finding network

and, uh, trying to create those allyships, uh, across,

across the aisles, if you will. So, mm-Hmm.

That's wonderful. Uh, first working on the board of the,

uh, on, on the tax board.

Do you, do they have a strong inclusion commitment?

Yeah, no, it's a, it's a great question

because I've been in the profession for close to 40 years,

and I've been a member of that organization for most of it.

Uh, my own experience with the foundation for

what it's worth, has been very positive.

I mean, I was invited, invited to be on the board.

I'm an open trans woman on, on Bay Street,

uh, all, all the rest of it.

So that was never a factor.

Uh, and not surprisingly, uh, you know, if you go back

to the late eighties when I really joined that organization

as a, a kind of newbie, sitting in the back rows

and listening and, and then through the nineties, et cetera,

I, I would've described it back then as an old boys club.

It was, uh, you know, it,

it was the typical Bay Suite button down black suit,

black blue tie, uh, uh, blue suit,

blue tie, uh, kind of crowd.

And that dominated, you started to see

the demographic in the profession

and in that foundation start to shift,

I would say in the nineties, late nineties, Emma.

And, but the shift was not towards true inclusion.

What we did see was a lot more women represented

and the population started

to become a little more gender balanced.

I hesitate to say we've achieved gender parity.

We're, we're pretty close in terms

of when you look at absolute membership numbers, it,

it becomes pretty close.

So the organization has evolved a lot, I think, in terms

of queer representation

and, gender, uh, you know,

gender diverse representation, all, all of those types

of things, uh, we're catching up is,

is the way I would put it.

Uh, we, we do have a DEI committee, that,

that's formed and, you know,

that goes across racial demographics, gender demographics,

and, and as well that the queer community

is, is represented.

But, you know, it, it is something that,

as an organization,

I would say it's been a little har a little longer

to take root in, but it's taking root

because our constituent members have been paying attention

for quite a period of time now.

And so of course, it comes from the membership,

it comes from the grassroots.

And, uh, I think

that's really critical anytime we're talking about these

inclusion mechanisms.

So, uh, in terms of, is it something

that's been at the forefront of thinking?

Of course not, but that's not the purpose

of the organization, of course, either.

It's to be welcoming to all,

but it's a professional community.

And so I haven't, uh, I haven't encountered resistance,

I haven't encountered discrimination

to use that word, et cetera.

Uh, but I think the understanding around why it's important

and how to, achieve the greater good

and the importance of inclusivity,

I would say it's a work in process,

but a positive work in process is,

is the way I'd like to spin it.

So that leads me to my, maybe my real question.

You're working on two boards right now.

One is sort of explicitly queer friendly, uh, and,

and its entire mandate, you could argue is inclusion,

and another one that's kind of had to grow into it

through policy changes.

What are the differences in your experience

between those two spaces?

And is the one driven by more lived experience

different than the one that's driven more

by top-down policy?

Yeah, so I think, I think there's a lot wrapped

up in that, obviously.

Yeah, Emma, because they,

and I'll, I'll try to dissect, dissect it and,

and put it in perspective.

Uh, I mean, they're very, very different organizations in

terms of their raise on de of course.

And, uh, of course, the easier one, easier one to speak

to your course is the chamber, uh, mm-Hmm.

The Chamber is there,

and its, uh, primary reason for existence is to enhance

and, uh, improve the experience of the queer community

and the queer business community in particular.

So that's, that's why it's, it's there.

That's why it's needed.

Uh, you know, there's a variety of initiatives

that are core to it's being.

There's the rainbow, uh, registry for,

for queer friendly businesses that get in.

There is the diverse supplier, uh, accreditation that goes,

which, you know, re requires a certain number of, uh,

queer ownership percentage in a business to, to get that,

that type of certification, et cetera.

So, uh, that is its reason for being there.

Its constituency, its members, it's, uh, uh,

entire policy is built around support

for the queer community.

You contrast that, you contrast that for a moment with the,

the tax foundation, very different mandate.

Our, our mandate is, uh, really

around understanding tax policy.

So I don't think you could get things too, uh, too, just,

uh, too, too much further apart on the spectrum.

Mm-Hmm. Reasons for organizations,

which is why I like being part of both, to be honest.

Yeah. Very much. It gives me this incredibly diverse

experience, but still, you know, part

of the broader community, part of the broader society.

So, you know, the tax community is, is really our mandate.

And again, it's not about adv advocacy per se, it's about

communication and education of where tax policy is,

is a very apolitical organization.

Let me make that very clear.

It's not a, it, it by definition

and by, uh, by guideline is not affiliated

with any political party, uh, in any way.

It's, it's really about an educational forum for those of us

who are crazy enough to be interested in

what tax policy is all about.

And, uh, it's, uh, you know, it's been

around for over 50 years.

So it's, uh, it's, it's longstanding

and, uh, you can probably tell as I start to ramble on,

I really enjoy being part of it.

I've, I've always, uh, I've been fortunate enough

to find a career that really invigorates me that, uh,

just tells you how weird I am

because it happens to, happens back.

Uh, but, uh, but yes,

and then kind of to bring it full circle to your question,

I've never really thought about it actually, uh, Emma,

other than one nurtures my professional soul

and one nurtures my personal soul.

And there's obviously a bit of a Venn diagram

where you get a bit of both from, uh, mm-hmm.

From the experience of being involved with those types of

conically different organizations.

So,

No, I love that. I

find it very interesting.

And yeah, how the two can kind of compliment each other

and feed your soul, like you say.

Um, uh,

I know when we talked a little bit about inclusion in the

workplace when we were last talking,

if you're in a situation where maybe you have a team member

that is working with a client,

or you're in client management

and you're working with a client

and you're feeling like maybe they're coming into

the client relationship and you sense some tension,

or that maybe there's some education needed there,

or maybe there's just straight out

language is harmful transphobic, let's dissect

that a little bit of what are some opportunities on

how somebody could address that if

they're a third party working with a supplier,

but they also have a team member,

or if it's happening to them themself on, you know,

what companies maybe have in place,

or, you know, what, what, what kind of steps could be

the way to work through that

before you maybe have to make a decision on whether you're

gonna continue to work with that client

or not, which is really challenging. Yeah.

Uh, uh, again, uh, you know, I'll share my thoughts and,

and to be, be clear, these are, these are my thoughts,

my experiences, et cetera.

So I think it's gonna vary across, uh, you know,

what others have experienced

and other organizations, et cetera.

But I do think, and something

that I referenced in our last chat that I,

I think sets the tone across the top, is what I refer

to as tone from the top.

And so I'm quite proud of our organization.

I think we've been out in the front foot of these types

of initiatives, whether it's queer inclusion

or racial diversity,

or just gender parity, those types of things.

I think, I think we were an early adopter in many ways

and realized the need for this

and the fact that it's just good business.

Uh, but that's great lip service until it comes time

to put these things in action.

And, uh, so speaking in terms of

institutional safeguards

or policy, if you will,

it really has to come from the c-suite.

It has to come from the top.

Uh, and there, you know, it's not dictatorial.

It has to be lived

and breathed by the presidential suite, the chairman, uh,

the, the, the executive committees, et cetera.

And they have to be consistent in that messaging.

They have to adopt,

and they have to show that they have, uh, that they have

to show that they've got the backs

of their constituencies in a professional services firm like

ours, your constituency is your people.

It's, it's your, your fellow partners,

but also all of the staff that, that work with us when,

you know, we, we have a broad foot fit footprint.

And, uh, believe it

or not, if you look globally to the size

of our firm these days,

we're almost 400,000 people around the globe.

So, uh, you know, we're, uh, we're, we're huge.

We're in 183 countries.

You run into geographic differences as well

as just sheer, sheer scale.

You run into political differences, of course,

and you run into legal differences in certain parts

of the world as we're painfully aware.

So, uh, but

nonetheless, trying to get that consistency

of tone from the top speaks to the internal part

of what's there.

And knowing that in my case, as a trans woman,

I've got the support where it matters the most,

and I'm gonna get that support that gives you

that blanketed security, if you will, that that sense

of self, that ability to show up for your job every day,

unencumbered by inhibition of, you know, are people noticing

how I'm dressed today?

Are people noticing, uh, how I speak today as opposed

to my professional credentials that I'm bringing

to the table, which is why I am there to begin with.

That all speaks to kind of inside the walls, if you will.

I think that the, the more

interesting dynamic is when you're in a professional

services firm, such as I am, you are dealing

with external clients all of the time.

Mm-Hmm. And those safeguards are not necessarily

there all the time.

So you, you know, you deal with a range

of clients across a range of industry, across a range of

cultural DNA in those organizations.

And as advisors, as third party contractors

for those organizations, we can't dictate to them

what those values can be.

What we can do is bring our values to the table

and continue to live our values,

even in commercial relationships like that.

Um, again, not to overblow it, not to just speak to,

to one institution,

but I was kind of given

pretty good blanket assurances early in my career

as my journey commenced, that that would never be an issue,

uh, that if we ran into that issue, we had coverage,

we had air coverage to kind of go back

and speak to the parties that be within our organization,

but we would not sacrifice, uh, the welfare fair

of our own people because of a client relationship.

Uh, fortunately I can say I've never had to face that.

Uh, are, are there microaggressions that occur, uh,

in client sites

or, uh, to, to a lesser extent within your own building?

Yeah, I, I mean, uh, again, I'll,

I'll repeat a phrase I've used before.

It's not always rainbows and unicorns. You, you know that.

And so you have to be prepared for that type of chatter.

Uh, those, those microaggressions do occur.

But one of the things that I,

I think is critically important,

and this is where our allies show up for us, is, uh,

ha having people defend you when you're not in the

room, uh mm-Hmm.

Kinda thing. So whether that's at a client site, uh, which,

which could occur, uh,

or whether that is just within your own four walls, it,

again, tone from the top that needs to be instilled that,

uh, you know, if you hear the talk, if you see the action,

that type thing, call it out.

Uh, call it out and,

and know that you've got, got the coverage more difficult

to do in a client commercial circumstance.

And I, I fully appreciate the practicality of that.

Doesn't make it any less important Cyn, I think,

I think you still have to live

and be guided by those core principles

and, uh, uh, you know, would it ever come to a circumstance

that you lose a client, lose a contract over it?

I'm really fortunate to say

that's never happened in my career.

Uh, has it, has it impacted?

Sometimes you just never know, right?

Like, it, it goes around you, uh, and,

and things of that nature.

But, uh, it's not as big of a,

I think we build it up in our own mind sometimes

as being a much bigger consequence

or implication, et cetera,

than the experience necessarily transpires all the time.

It does happen. And I,

and I'm not, not trying to pretend that again,

that everything's rainbows and unicorns,

but I kinda like to focus on the positive

and go, those are really outliers, and they're becoming more

and more the outlier situation Mm-Hmm.

At this point in time. Uh,

and I don't think that that's dependent on size

of the counterparty IE size, uh, you know, share,

share employee numbers, revenue numbers, et cetera.

I think it's cultural. DNA has shifted over the last 20

years, and, uh, people are just a little more in tune

with inclusivity

and recognizing we're not all that different at, at the end

of the day, and we're here to do a job.

And, uh, you know, you, you try to connect those dots.

Uh, uh, I hope that it doesn't sound too glossy

because I don't want to, I don't wanna pretend

that it never happens because it, it, it's certainly does,

but it's, uh, I do think in my own experience, I can say

with credibility, it's an outlier if, if it happens, Mm-Hmm.

And, and I've could only count maybe two

or three times where I felt

or certain it was happening, as opposed to maybe two

or three other times, when is it happening?

And I was never a hundred percent certain.

So it's, uh, uh, so I'll, I'll pause there.

That that's a, that's a stream of consciousness on a very

interesting topic that deserves a lot of time

to be delved into, to be honest.

And, and I don't think there's ever gonna be one right

answer, and there's certainly never gonna be one unique

experience or one specific experience that speaks

to all that's out there. So

Time to take a break from this Trans Canada stories,

for a TD connected communities moment.

Trans Canada stories are your stories,

and we're all about connecting communities

right across Canada.

We would love to hear from you.

What topics would you like us to cover?

Do you know someone who'd like to be a guest on the show?

Follow the link in the show notes

and share with us how can we make Trans Canada

stories great for you?

That was a TD connected community moment

because community matters.

Uh, I've asked this question of a couple

of guests on the show,

and it's one that I find pretty interesting.

Uh, and it it speaks to your experience where this sort of,

um, uh, uh, transphobia is getting

to be more and more of an outlier, outlier experience,

and we're very pleased with that.

But as we move from a survival situation

to maybe a more maintenance situation as far

as queer inclusion in, let's say the safer spaces, uh,

in services, in corporate, um,

what strategies do you think might need to change from

companies to support maintenance?

Um, lemme address that in a, in a broader context of kind

of what's going on across the Americas for certain, and,

and definitely around the world.

I think if you, if you go broader,

and then if we can try to focus on the corporate sector, uh,

I think, you know, Des, despite all the progress and,

and despite, uh, the fact that we, I like to think we're,

we're past the survival stage

for the queer community in general,

and the trans community in particular,

and we're, you know, ideally creating environments

for people not to survive, but to thrive.

Uh, Emma, I think we're also seeing, uh, particularly south

of the border, but also here in Canada,

we're seeing political backlash to that progress. Mm-Hmm.

Worldwide, I would say, but yeah.

Yeah. Very, very much against the trans

community in particular.

Uh, it's not limited to North America.

We of course know what's going on in the UK

and the politic pol politicization, uh, that's occurred

with, uh, the recent CS report, for example,

and things of that nature.

So, uh, so it's, it's very real right now.

I do think it's driven, uh, I know, I shouldn't say,

I think, I think the empirical evidence is there, that

that type of momentum, despite the groundswell

and the damage it's doing right now, can be traced to a very

discreet number of groups

that are pushing this type of legislation.

Mm-Hmm. I do not truly believe that it's indicative

of the wider population

or a wider backlash, if you will,

against the progress that's been made.

Uh, I think there's a number

of factors have allowed a very vocal minority

to get footholds and, uh,

and create some of the damage that we're seeing occur,

particularly in state legislatures.

But, uh, I know Cyn a year ago, uh,

we talked a little bit about this,

and it was Oklahoma at the time

that was out in the front foot about this.

And I feel a little prescient with my comment in that, in

that I said, you know, people say that's Oklahoma.

It's a long ways from here, and it's not. And Mm-hmm.

You know, we're less than Mm-Hmm.

A year and a half later, and we've seen it

trickle north of the border.

We've seen what's happened Mm-Hmm.

In Saskatchewan, new Brunswick,

Alberta more recently, that type of thing. Mm-Hmm.

Areas of Toronto or Arizona,

Ontario, absolutely. Yeah. As well,

You look at the school systems right, in the GTA here,

and those are, again, harmful examples that are there.

So that rhetoric is out there. And again, mm-hmm.

To repeat the phrase earlier,

it's not always rainbows and unicorns.

That's, that's the reality

of the environment we're living in.

So, to get to your direct question, Emma,

I think I always think of it in that context

of it's those external forces

that are gonna put pressure on the corporate boardrooms

and the corporate sector, et cetera.

And when we go through periods like we're in right now,

it's absolutely incumbent on the base

of the world to stand firm.

You know, there's a reason, there's a reason

that companies adopted DEI, there's a reason

that they adopt inclusivity,

and it's not out of the pure goodness of their hearts

or the better search for mankind.

I'd like to believe that was the reason.

But we're capitalists at the end of the day. Mm-Hmm.

It's good business. It's good business.

You know, you attract more talent in the door Mm-Hmm.

With those policies, you get the best

of the best in the door.

You get more access to a broader spectrum

of community and things of that nature.

And I think those principles have proven themselves

to such an empirical degree that, again,

maybe I'm overly optimistic here,

but I believe the corporate community,

the business community,

the broader community sees the value in that

and will not allow these other undercurrents

to really take hold

and manifest themselves in damaging ways.

So I think it's incumbent on the corporate sector

to hold firm on the policies they've adopted

and the progress that they've made on our behalf. So

I'd love to jump in there a little bit just to see how,

so, you know, what I've seen

and heard is the, with the groups being so strong

with the messaging that they're sending,

and it's really targeting, um, that transphobic message

to newcomers and, uh, people that have

come from a culture where perhaps, you know, they're not

as caught up with, uh, human rights as

around gender identity.

So one instance was with a school where parents, uh,

weren't familiar with, you know, gender identity

and trans inclusion.

They've come from a country that is not inclusive

and they are, you know, potentially pushing back

and really upset about schools,

talking about gender identity.

These same people then are going to work in, you know,

your workplace or another

corporate or maybe a small business.

And so how, what do you think, you know,

how do we tackle that?

Like how do you, you know, how do you

diffuse the strength of the message, the misinformation

that's being sent specifically to those particular groups?

Y yeah, I mean, that, that's a,

a really interesting dynamic.

And, and you know, obviously we see a lot of it in the GTA

'cause we're such a culturally, racially diverse center, one

of the most diverse in the world,

not just in, in the Americas.

And, and so we see a lot of culture clash, uh,

if, if, if you will.

But I think there's a lot of dichotomy in that as well.

I mean, the same things that you're talking about, it's,

it's, a lot of people end up in a Toronto of the world,

or a city like Toronto of the world

because they see the freedom from those, those past mm-hmm.

Experiences, et cetera.

Uh, but at the same time, those cultural,

that cultural DNA does follow certain

demographics and is, is there.

So I think the broader comment that, again, personal dogma

and all the rest of it in terms of

what I think visibility matters, I think

doing podcasts like this

and getting the message out there in broader forums

and what I'll call more mainstream forums too.

So, you know, taking it out of just the queer channels

and getting it into mainstream channels so that people start

to see that we're just living, working,

and doing our daily lives just like everyone else is.

And we happen to be trans or bi or, or gay

or lesbian, what, whatever kind of thing.

I think people need to see that to embrace it.

And it's a lot harder to discriminate against a, a,

a person once you've met someone

that's comes from that community.

And so visibility matters.

So I think with visibility too,

and onto your point earlier in the conversation too,

where you talked a lot about reflecting back on your own

career and, um, looking at

the sameness and the differences, the, you know,

the similarities and the differences, uh,

in interchanges exchanges that you've gone through.

And I think you can, maybe

that's the opportunities bringing, you know,

these different cultures together.

Um, perhaps they've come here

because they've been persecuted where they were,

or they have gone through something

that's very similar, but different.

And finding that common ground can build

that empathy for understanding.

Yeah. And I think the whole, you know,

the whole immigrant situation is something

that I can only speak to anecdotally, of course.

'cause I, I, I don't have that lived experience.

But, you know, the reality is, I, I have to believe people

who come from other cultures, other countries, they,

they come with from what they know to the complete unknown.

And this is sometimes just one anchor that they bring along

with them in terms of what their lived experience,

their lived knowledge, their lived, uh, culture has been up

until this point in time.

And so now they're in a, you know, brand new situation,

brand new country, brand new culture.

It, it, it takes time to win over hearts and minds and,

and realize that the similarities are bigger than the,

the cultural differences, if you will. So

It's true, the conversations are so important, you know,

just having the conversations and building upon them

A ab Absolutely.

And, uh, again, I think the,

the broader the footprint we can get across all segments

of society, I guess, is, uh,

is only gonna enhance the ability

to bring everybody to an equal fight. So

Do you worry about travel anymore, Terri?

Like, I know you've, you've worked

and lived in different countries

and you had mentioned though that you're gonna be doing

some exciting traveling coming up.

And do you, do you feel, uh, apprehensive about that ever?

Or just pure excitement now

or, you know, how, how you lead into that?

So, yeah, I, I, there's again, a lot

of levels to talk about there.

I, I love to travel.

Uh, I, I had a tremend, I've had a tremendous career,

have a tremendous career that's allowed me to travel a lot.

And even if it was work travel, I used

to get very excited about it.

I don't know if it's age or, or what it is these days,

but the work travel has be kinda lost.

Its clamor these days.

And it's not really related

to the trance experience directly.

It's, it's more just, I like to travel.

For me these days, not so much for, uh, for, for business

where it does intersect.

And, and I would say

that this is a little more small p political for me, uh,

as opposed to even personal safety experience, et cetera.

But there are jurisdictions, particularly states that I will

put my hand up and say, I'm not going there.

If I, if I'm asked to travel on business, I will say no,

and this is why.

Um, I don't know that that's the right answer to be honest,

because the flip side is a lot of people don't have

that ability to say no.

And so do I set the wrong example by exerting influence

and saying, no, I'm not, not gonna go there,

but that I choose to spend my dollars in other areas.

And, uh, you know, I think

to the extent I can influence decisions about

where we spend our corporate dollars, et cetera,

I'm not averse to being vocal about that

and saying, have you thought about,

and I'm a little bit privileged

because of position, experience, tenure, all the rest of it.

I could put my hand in the air and say no.

But I also want that to be an example for other people

to say, I just don't feel safe going to, and I'll name them.

I don't feel safe going to Florida these days.

I don't feel safe going to Tennessee these days.

I don't want to go to Missouri these days.

I don't want to go to Oklahoma or Texas these days

because here's the laws that affect,

affect me when I'm there.

Mm-Hmm. And, uh, I think

that's more than fair to our people.

And I think, uh, I think we have the ability

to make those statements kind of thing.

So, um, uh, so long ways to answer your question.

I still love to travel Cyn.

I love to travel for personal enjoyment, et cetera,

but I also appreciate this politics in addition

to personal safety wrapped up

with those decisions greater than there ever have

been in my past. So,

No, it's great. It's

great. Um, because yeah, it's like, it's personal

and corporate, uh, governance, good governance

and, um, looking out for the safety for yourself,

but also corporates have a responsibility

of not sending somebody into a danger zone.

Uh, and if it's, that's the political, it might be safe

for other people within the company,

but if it's not for you'll, you know,

then they should be something

You there. I'll give a shout out. I'll

give a shout out

to the NBA still.

I mean, it's almost 10 years ago when the first bathroom

bill really came up in North Carolina at the time.

And, uh, we have bathroom bills back,

of course at this point in time, but that was 20 15, 20 16.

And the NBA all-star game was supposed to be in Charlotte

that year, and they said, no, we we're, we're pulling it.

And that was estimated to cost the local economy close

to a billion dollars and it shut that bill down.

So that is the power of economic statement. Mm-Hmm.

If you will. And, uh, so I still go to that, that,

that's such a powerful example in my mind.

So

I know we're almost out of time.

I guess, can I just ask one other quick question,

um, if you have a second.

I was just, I know when we talked this time last year,

I was e eking up towards

and had passed, I think was 540 plus anti-trans bills

that had, you know, had been proposed in the States.

Uh, seems like a lot of them are falling

and not going through now.

And do you think that was though the overall strategy

that it was al always known that they wouldn't go through,

but it was just meant to be that disruptor to catch the eyes

of potentially more people that could

be the target of mis messaging, if, if that makes sense?

Yeah, no, I, it,

it certainly raised the temperature in the room

to the highest degree

that it's been in decades kind of thing.

And, uh, you know, I think there's a lot more at stake than,

uh, you know, tra trance rights are near

and dear to my heart, of course, and,

and central to anyone listening to this.

But I do think it's bigger than trance rights.

And I, I think that that was an easy, easier wedge,

if you will, for the parties that were behind these bills.

The alliance defending freedom, for example,

that's constantly out there.

You can trace almost every one of those bills back to

that organization in one form or another.

So it speaks to the very vocal

and well-funded minority that is,

is pushing this type of rhetoric.

Uh, so, uh, lost the thread a little bit there Cyn, but, uh,

but in terms of, was it all about just

bringing it into public eye?

I, I actually don't believe so.

I think that was one of the intended goals for certain,

but I do believe that certain of the organizations thought

that they would achieve everything that was on the table.

They've done a lot of damage despite the fact that

so many bills have fallen by the wayside.

We've seen it happen in states like Georgia

where they died Cyn die, uh,

and you know, there's some 20 bills that happened in Iowa

where the legislature closed

and none of the bills got through,

but they've opened the door to keep bringing them back.

And I think it's just, I do think the real goal

that was there is let's move the

goalposts and keep hammering on it.

Mm-Hmm. So I don't think we've seen the end of it either.

Uh, and the only way to see the end of it is vote.

You know, get out there and, and make your vote count

and let's stop this.

And we have seen some positive

trends on the voting front in recent elections,

whether it's school boards

or the last congressional cycle, et cetera.

I, I know I'm speaking US politics to a Canadian audience,

but I think we're gonna see it repeat itself here

and we already are, uh, kind of thing.

Mm-Hmm. So I think that blueprint has

now been imported into Canada,

and we're seeing organizations trying to use it.

The reality is we can also see the lived experience south

of the border and make this a, a, a, a, a quicker circuit,

if you will, to bring it to an end Mm-Hmm.

If people are paying attention. So,

So it's, uh, exactly.

Thank you, Terri. Thank you so much.

Happy to join. So thank you.

Yeah. Thanks for joining us today

and, uh, we can't wait

to hear about your travels and talk to you again.

Hopefully we'll see you in Toronto

and we're there later this year.

And if you're out east here and Halifax

or the Atlantic, you'll have to reach out to us.

I'd love that. Okay, Emma, thank you very much.

Thank you very much, Sam. Thanks so

Much for coming in. It's

been wonderful having you.

You.